Very solid Jameson. We have had to stand on this principal many times. It is very discouraging when they left and went to other congregations and accepted as nothing was wrong. Recently, we had a couple annul their 30 year marriage because of this reason and it was very good for our congregation.
That is discouraging. Sometimes congregations waver on this issue; sometimes I think the couple stops talking about it and the elders don't realize the situation. It is encouraging when we see people who want to obey God, no matter how difficult it may be!
I just realized we are Facebook friends. Can I send you some questions via Messenger? Let me know because I don't want to just send you an unsolicited text with questions about this subject as it pertains to me personally without your approval or willingness to be burdened with my questions when i'm sure your inundated with texts from so many people asking questions about so many various subjects.
Maybe this is a painful subject but there isn't enough be written by memlike you or men from the pulpit or Elders in counseling, admonishing or withdrawing from men and women who commit adultry, remarry and continue their fellowship within the church. This one situation is a primary cause for so many churches who don't have men qualified to be Elders.
I have several questions regarding the whole aspect of broken marriage vows which in my opinion is a broken Covenant with God. Do you allow your brothers and sisters in Christ to contact for one on one exchanges for questions and answers? By text, phone, email, or video chats? I'm just not comfortable asking questions in a format for comments.
I feel the need to ask: can you explain the textual basis for saying that adultery, as expressed, is ongoing and continual? This runs counter to my understanding, but I'm open to better explanations based on the text. Thanks!
When Jesus uses the Greek word (moichaō) which is translated "commits adultery" - it is a present tense verb which means this is a continuous, ongoing action. The KJV translators put an "eth" on the end of present tense verbs to show the ongoing action. So what Jesus is literally saying is that the one in this passage who marries another "continues to commit adultery" so long as they are married to the other person.
I appreciate you venturing into this topic. I have noticed that it seems to be rare for Mt. 19:1-11 to be featured in sermons (and virtually unheard of for v. 12 to be mentioned, 12a being a verse that is personally important to me).
I don't think this changes your point at all, but I like to compare English translations with the Greek, and I am wondering about μοιχᾶται. If it is in the present passive indicative then I would expect it to be of undefined aspect, rather than continuous. Just curious.
I see that there are also variants at this point in the text. Interesting.
Have you repented from something if your in the same state/relationship that was sinful before being baptized? In other words I have kidnapped someone and then baptized. Can I keep the kidnapped person? Or when I know that is sinful will I release them? Baptism doesn’t change the state of the kidnapping to say all things have passed away and are made new. Me still holding the kidnapped person is still sinful. It seems so many can grasp this understanding but not when it comes to adultery. Baptism does not change the definition or state of sin. Repentance is getting out of the sin.
The form of the Greek word translated “have passed” means an action that has occurred at some POINT in the past.
Whatever these old things are, the apostle declares that when someone becomes a Christian, these old things have departed;
-they have left the building;
-they have passed away.
-They are no longer present doing that which they had always done in choice-making-realm of the Christian.
What are these “old things” that have passed?
Being that said and I'm not trying to argue or anything I just want clarity because I'm in a horrible situation and I want to honor the Lord.
If old things passed away wouldn't that include vows? Promises? Sind?
Like when you become born again all the vows and covenants you make with demons unknowing and knowing don't they go away when you renounce and repent from them?
Why is marriage any different . I just want clarity.
if anything you say is true. which i do not think it is. but lets accept the notion it is. Then the Pharisees are correct in saying "Truly it is not good to marry" for it is a death sentence.
"And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery; and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." Matthew 19:9
This is Jesus' own teaching on marriage and adultery. What about it isn't true?
for legalistic Pharisees. it's easy to point to one or two verses and say "see that's it" I never said Divorce and remarriage is not adultery. IT IS!! but the crux of the issue is the adultery from remarriage is a CONTINUOUS SIN? I say it's not.
woman at the well was married what 5 times and her current man was not her husband. Jesus didn't say " you had a covenant spouse and 5 adulterous affairs" no he recognized each marriage afterwards.
David committed adultery and murder. But after David repented God didn't tell David to divorce Bathsheba. NOPE God blessed David's adulterous union and blessed him. Yes, David had to pay a price. But God forgave David and blessed the union.
These are a few examples. Remarriage is a adultery. But once the couple repent Like David God washes the slate clean. Once the remarriage as been made the old covenant is broken (by consummations in the marriage bed) and a new covenant is made. God honors the new covenant. Adultery is NOT a continuous sin. it's a one time sin. Remarriage is not the unforgivable sin. There is only one of those.
Pharisees lived 2000 years ago and still live today. Jesus detested them and mocked them then. He still does now.
Very solid Jameson. We have had to stand on this principal many times. It is very discouraging when they left and went to other congregations and accepted as nothing was wrong. Recently, we had a couple annul their 30 year marriage because of this reason and it was very good for our congregation.
That is discouraging. Sometimes congregations waver on this issue; sometimes I think the couple stops talking about it and the elders don't realize the situation. It is encouraging when we see people who want to obey God, no matter how difficult it may be!
I just realized we are Facebook friends. Can I send you some questions via Messenger? Let me know because I don't want to just send you an unsolicited text with questions about this subject as it pertains to me personally without your approval or willingness to be burdened with my questions when i'm sure your inundated with texts from so many people asking questions about so many various subjects.
Through Messenger will be fine as well - either that or the email (centeredonchristtoday@outlook.com), whichever you prefer.
Maybe this is a painful subject but there isn't enough be written by memlike you or men from the pulpit or Elders in counseling, admonishing or withdrawing from men and women who commit adultry, remarry and continue their fellowship within the church. This one situation is a primary cause for so many churches who don't have men qualified to be Elders.
I have several questions regarding the whole aspect of broken marriage vows which in my opinion is a broken Covenant with God. Do you allow your brothers and sisters in Christ to contact for one on one exchanges for questions and answers? By text, phone, email, or video chats? I'm just not comfortable asking questions in a format for comments.
It is a challenging thing for sure. I'll try my best to give you a biblical answer - you can email your questions to centeredonchristtoday@outlook.com
Thanks for a thoughtful article, Jameson.
I feel the need to ask: can you explain the textual basis for saying that adultery, as expressed, is ongoing and continual? This runs counter to my understanding, but I'm open to better explanations based on the text. Thanks!
Thank you Tony!
When Jesus uses the Greek word (moichaō) which is translated "commits adultery" - it is a present tense verb which means this is a continuous, ongoing action. The KJV translators put an "eth" on the end of present tense verbs to show the ongoing action. So what Jesus is literally saying is that the one in this passage who marries another "continues to commit adultery" so long as they are married to the other person.
I hope that's been helpful!
I appreciate you venturing into this topic. I have noticed that it seems to be rare for Mt. 19:1-11 to be featured in sermons (and virtually unheard of for v. 12 to be mentioned, 12a being a verse that is personally important to me).
I don't think this changes your point at all, but I like to compare English translations with the Greek, and I am wondering about μοιχᾶται. If it is in the present passive indicative then I would expect it to be of undefined aspect, rather than continuous. Just curious.
I see that there are also variants at this point in the text. Interesting.
Have you repented from something if your in the same state/relationship that was sinful before being baptized? In other words I have kidnapped someone and then baptized. Can I keep the kidnapped person? Or when I know that is sinful will I release them? Baptism doesn’t change the state of the kidnapping to say all things have passed away and are made new. Me still holding the kidnapped person is still sinful. It seems so many can grasp this understanding but not when it comes to adultery. Baptism does not change the definition or state of sin. Repentance is getting out of the sin.
THIRD “OLD THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY”
The form of the Greek word translated “have passed” means an action that has occurred at some POINT in the past.
Whatever these old things are, the apostle declares that when someone becomes a Christian, these old things have departed;
-they have left the building;
-they have passed away.
-They are no longer present doing that which they had always done in choice-making-realm of the Christian.
What are these “old things” that have passed?
Being that said and I'm not trying to argue or anything I just want clarity because I'm in a horrible situation and I want to honor the Lord.
If old things passed away wouldn't that include vows? Promises? Sind?
Like when you become born again all the vows and covenants you make with demons unknowing and knowing don't they go away when you renounce and repent from them?
Why is marriage any different . I just want clarity.
if anything you say is true. which i do not think it is. but lets accept the notion it is. Then the Pharisees are correct in saying "Truly it is not good to marry" for it is a death sentence.
I could be wrong, but I have tried to take my thoughts from the Scriptures.
Jesus' own disciples said something similar: "If such is the case of the man with his wife, it is better not to marry" (Matthew 19:10).
So maybe I am wrong. But perhaps, this is another one of those "hard sayings" of Jesus that causes many people to refuse to follow Him - John 6:60-66.
"And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery; and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." Matthew 19:9
This is Jesus' own teaching on marriage and adultery. What about it isn't true?
for legalistic Pharisees. it's easy to point to one or two verses and say "see that's it" I never said Divorce and remarriage is not adultery. IT IS!! but the crux of the issue is the adultery from remarriage is a CONTINUOUS SIN? I say it's not.
woman at the well was married what 5 times and her current man was not her husband. Jesus didn't say " you had a covenant spouse and 5 adulterous affairs" no he recognized each marriage afterwards.
David committed adultery and murder. But after David repented God didn't tell David to divorce Bathsheba. NOPE God blessed David's adulterous union and blessed him. Yes, David had to pay a price. But God forgave David and blessed the union.
These are a few examples. Remarriage is a adultery. But once the couple repent Like David God washes the slate clean. Once the remarriage as been made the old covenant is broken (by consummations in the marriage bed) and a new covenant is made. God honors the new covenant. Adultery is NOT a continuous sin. it's a one time sin. Remarriage is not the unforgivable sin. There is only one of those.
Pharisees lived 2000 years ago and still live today. Jesus detested them and mocked them then. He still does now.